Why I as a Libertarian support the NI4D.

So I am a Libertarian. And I support the NI4D. Why is that?

First of all, let me begin by saying that I will not directly enact the NI4D if I were ever elected to Congress. I would just be another person voting in favor of it when the matter came before the people. That being said, let me go on to explain why I do support it.

In my position debating politics on a daily basis at rtrradio.com, I got into debates about this often. There are certainly compelling arguments on both sides of this issue. But I think that a lot of it comes from one side being largely ignorant as to the truth of what the NI4D proposes.

The NI4D proposes that we add a check and balance to the system that allows for the people of the United States to call for a federal ballot initiative Very much like we have on the State level in many states. This same system allowed former Libertarian candidate for President Steve Kubby to legalize medical marijuana in the state of California. It has helped the Swiss people to protect their freedoms for hundreds of years. It just helped the people of Ireland prevent the EU from depriving it's member nations of individual sovereignty. What is a ballot initiative? Well basically what it entails is that the people can put together a petition to allow a matter of law to be brought before a majority vote of the citizens in the jurisdiction it will affect.

Is there a possibility for abuse? Well as Senator Gravel points out in his book, when the people make a bad law they are more likely to feel the pinch and want to change it. And with the ability to do so they would get together and actually change it. Politicians on the other hand are more likely to try and cover it up, or continue to try and justify it because they don't want to be out of a job at the next election.(Bob Barr's flip-flopping on the various blunders he committed as a Congressmen come to mind...) Another serious misconception about the National Initiative is that it could be used to deprive us of our constitutional rights. The Supreme Court still has the ability to overturn anything unconstitutional that is passed in any law. Whether that law is made by the Congress, or by the people. This would still protect the minority from any such abuses.

Another compelling question that I asked myself when I was coming to the decision about how I felt about the national initiative is what is wrong with our current representative government? I run into a lot of problems with some people in the "freedom movement" who spent a lot of time initially complaining about the flaws in our republic, and then afterward when this issue was brought before them suddenly ardently defended it. If the people in the republic actually elected our representatives it might be different. But we don't. We cast our votes of course. (All Diebold hacking and voter fraud accusations aside) But to what end? Of the representatives I know of in Congress now, I can think of two that I trust for sure, and possibly one more. That would be Congressmen Ron Paul, Congressmen Dennis Kucinich, (aside from social issues of course). So, that's two. Two people out of the entire Congress, and no Senators that I trust at all. If you can name me even ten that you trust and you are a Libertarian I would be highly surprised.

So, lets consider the real math of the situation. As this is often brought up.

Should the 51% be allowed to tell the 49% what to do?

That is certainly not an ideal equation. And thankfully it rarely comes up. And people apply it to the NI4D often. Especially my fellow Libertarians who are concerned about the possibility of tyranny of the majority over the minority. They often quote Ben Franklin and his analogy of the wolves and the sheep voting on what's for dinner. I doubt Mr. Franklin was given a scenario where there would be a Constitution defending the rights of that minority of sheep to not be subject to any votes where they could become dinner. It is an excellent example how the founding fathers are often quoted out of context by many people debating this issue. So the first part of this that needs to be clarified is that with the NI4D, the 49% can ONLY be told what to do by the 51% if the law in question is Constitutional. Period.

One of the things that Mike Gravel was trying to make Libertarians understand during his final speech before the voting to determine who our Presidential nominee would be, was that we already employ majority rule constantly in every day society. And that we had done so working on our platform throughout the convention. Should 51% of the Libertarian party be able to tell the other 49% of the party what should and should not be in the platform? We use that system because mathematically it is the fairest system that will treat the most people fairly most of the time.

What about when electing representatives? Should Bob Barr's delegates that represented the majority by a narrow margin of delegates been able to force their choice for our nominee on the other portion of the Libertarian party? Hey, maybe we should all be able to pick our own candidate. That is the only way to be fair right? Wait a minute, pick our own candidates? Why not just have everyone be empowered to vote as they want to on their own? Hmm...

The republic already forces tyranny of the majority on us right now as Libertarians, as thanks to it we have no voting power in the Congress, or in the Senate, and we are not likely to elect a president in the foreseeable future. (.32% of the vote in the last Presidential election I believe?) Because we are that minority. So is the republic still the best answer?

I am honestly more worried about a different set of math. And that would be the tyranny of the minority. If you are uncomfortable with 51% vs 49% let's talk about the republic's numbers. As right now we have 0.000176% (This number includes all of the Congress, the Senate, and the President.) telling the other 99.999% what to do. Well hey, that should be fine because the majority elects those people right?

Wait a second, didn't we just say that majority rule was bad?

Will it be "mob rule" of the majority of the people? Or "mob rule" of a minority elected in a corrupted system where money buys your vote?

And we tell ourselves that we are fine, because after all, the Constitution will protect us. Our representatives can't do anything against the Constitution. Like say...the Patriot act? The Iraq War resolution? There are now about a dozen or so more examples I can provide. But I am hoping if you are reading this you already know what I am talking about.

But hey, that's against the rules! Can't they be impeached?

The only person trying to do this right now is Dennis Kucinich. He is doing all his power as a Congressmen provides him with. Just as he tried to do with our Vice President. And he is not having as much success as we would hope. Especially considering how blatantly obvious it is that his allegations are likely all 100% well founded. Should be easy to impeach someone for blatantly lying to the American people right? Particularly if they did so to take us to a war that some people think we will be in for hundreds of years?

If we had a federal initiative, we wouldn't have to depend on Dennis Kucinich to impeach people like this, we could immediately recall them. It is absurd that we have to suffer through four years of any President with an approval rating below 30%. Or any other statesmen for that matter.

But instead we get to watch Congressmen Dennis Kucinich struggle against insurmountable odds. Because the majority of the Congress, and the Senate are all bought and paid for by campaign contributions from companies that are raking in billions on the wars that the Bush administration lied to get us into. It's possible and even likely that a good deal of the people who would have to vote on such an impeachment resolution might even be profiting right now from those wars or seek to do so in the future. It is known that a lot of politicians retire from their positions to go immediately into the private sector for companies that gave them contributions during their careers.

So now we look at an even smaller minority. That minority is the elected representatives who actually care about us and are not bought and paid for by the companies that use our government as a means to more profits. So, that two or maybe three Congressmen out of the 0.000176% of the population.

You still confident that our republic alone is the means to achieve our Libertarian goals? People with Libertarian ideals are notoriously difficult to elect. We have this principled tendency to tell special interests and lobbyists to take a flying leap. So that means instead of at least having our own personal piece of the political power in the form of our votes on a federal ballot initiative, we get ZERO power other then the power to run for elections we cannot win and post on blogs that most people will never read. We have the power to speak out for candidates that we cannot possibly afford to fund campaigns for even a fraction as much money as the opponents they face will have. People will point to the money we raised for Ron Paul. I would then like to ask when the "freedom movement" has been able to reproduce that effort? Every attempt at a money bomb I have seen for anyone other then Ron Paul has failed. A lot of people donated to his campaign and now they are looking at their empty bank accounts and wondering if they wasted their money. It makes them naturally reluctant to do so for anyone else. And honestly I don't blame them.

Libertarians often say that most people are Libertarian and just don't know it. Statistics also show that when the people are given the power to vote on the issues themselves they have a much better track record of voting in a Libertarian fashion. Why is that? Like Dr. Paul said, "Freedom is popular." So who are you more scared of? The majority deciding if we want to live in a fascist state? Or a minority of elites propped up by corporate money that is already passing fascist laws as we speak?

People are concerned about the media. Could the same thing that is being done to elect our representatives also be done to affect a federal ballot initiative? The NI4D has provisions in it to prevent anyone other then natural persons from donating to a campaign for or against an initiative. I should also point out that it is much easier to elect someone who claims they are going to do something for you and find out the hard way they were lying to you after election day, then it is for a law that you voted on as written suddenly changing it's mind later. Laws are written on pieces of paper. They cannot be bribed. They do not have an ulterior motive of their own. It is a lot harder to lobby and bribe the people into giving away their freedoms then it is to convince a struggling Congressmen, Senator, or President to do so for the fair price of a good solid campaign contribution and a promise of a job after they are out of office.

It is much easier to sell a stupid person then it is to sell a stupid idea.

Yes, it is inevitable that some bad idea or another will be passed with a federal ballot initiative. Just as we see people vote for "bad ideas" in the form of politicians like the ones in our current administration. The difference is when we vote for bad people we cannot do anything to stop them until after they can do plenty of damage. And we have to wait them out for the two or four years in office before we can make them answer for it.

When "We the people" can oversee our own laws then we can change them ourselves. And we can do that without having to be elected in uphill campaigns against opponents who are not interested in the common good for the United States and instead are interested in the good for their corporate sponsors.

Some Libertarians say they don't trust the people. This argument also applies to the republic model, as the people elect those representatives as well. (Doing a bang up job of that aren't we?)

So unless a large portion of Libertarians win the lottery and are willing to buy themselves some Congressmen, Senators and Presidents (Even if we are just "buying" them by getting good people elected for the right reasons it still costs money and lots of it.) I do not feel that we will ever see anything resembling a Libertarian society in our lifetimes. It just is not in the best interest of the people in charge to allow that to happen. And make no mistake, they with the money are the people in charge. As long as our government is bought and paid for the republic will fail. Unless the people who gave money to Ron Paul are willing to go down the line and money bomb for a candidate for Congress, and Senate in every Congressional district and in every state, and unless they are willing to do more then just sit and complain about how much they dislike the way things are going in chat rooms and on message boards and instead actually get out there and help these people, you will never see this republic do anything more then it has and is doing when it comes to freedom. Watch C-SPAN for a while to get a feel for that. I doubt you will like what you see.

Our Constitutional republic is not enough on it's own to protect our freedoms.

Read Chapter 12 of Mike Gravel's book "Citizen Power" and learn the truth about why our government was designed the way it was. You will not only be shocked, you will be angry. I know I was. The short form of it is this. We wanted to ratify our Constitution. We used to do things by town hall meeting majority vote in the colonies. That ended when Madison realized that he could not get a Constitution ratified with slavery in it if the people were allowed to ratify it themselves. So the idea of electing delegates to handle our Constitution was pushed past the people. And you will never guess who won those elections? The rich elites of the early United States. And as soon as the matter was taken out of the hands of the people we got ourselves a constitution with slavery.

Our founding fathers were great. But they had their own flaws as well.

Do you think the majority of the people want to be slaves?

Do you think an elected minority empowered in elections that are controlled by forces outside of the will of the people would be more likely or less likely to make us slaves?

I know what my answer is to that. And it scares the hell out of me.

That is why I support a Constitutional republic, that allows for federal ballot initiatives to be the final check in the system when the people we elect to represent us fail to do so. With a Constitution to protect the rights of the few. And a democratic ballot to protect the rights of the many.

Comments

planetaryjim:

The medical marijuana laws are among the more popular referenda generated in various states. However, you neglect to mention one of the more notorious ones, the recent Proposition 8 bill which passed by a substantial majority in California.

Unfortunately, the nature of a referendum is that it is decided by a majority of those who choose to show up to the polls. Where that demographic is determined largely by external variables, such as the presidential race this past year, one gets results based on the preferences of people who may not agree with a substantial group of voters. In many other elections, a referendum against gay marriage would not have passed.

James Madison and other writers of the period referred to such a system of direct democracy "the tyranny of the majority." They were exceedingly skeptical about the decency and preferences of the general population, which was at the time significantly less broadly affected by government propaganda in public schools. Arguably, their population was much more broadly read than ours today.

I am against the national initiative for democracy and all other forms of direct democracy for several reasons. First, I think voting is madness. Second, I think the votes are not properly counted. Third, I think that voting is an exceedingly poor way of taking choices.

I have reviewed many of these arguments in my essay on the madness of voting.
http://indomitus.net/madnessofvoting.html

Since the topic is now current on this site, I'll move that text to my blog here.

VTV:

It is often interesting to me that Libertarians are completely happy with the idea of the masses making good decisions when voting with their dollars to ensure the health of a free market.

But they don't like the idea of a "free market" of laws, where the "market" determines what laws will stay and what will go based on the feelings of the "consumers".

We say that the free market will produce quality and prosperity economically, because it will give us over time what is best through either rejection or acceptance of products and the businesses that produce them.

As Senator Mike Gravel points out, the same is true of laws passed by referendum. You will get stupid things like proposal 8. But people will eventually figure out that is not the way to go. And change it.

A republic-model politician however, will be very hesitant to go back on his previous decision out of fear of looking foolish and thereby harming his chances at re-election.

Basically I am comparing the republic model that a lot of the Ron Paul Libertarians in particular have so much faith in to a Republic PLUS a referendum system. I understand that you are an anarchist, so your world would have no voting at all. I will write an article about the comparisons of those systems at a later time.

You are also not addressing that the minority would be protected by the Constitution.

I would still rather live in direct democracy then a republic full of authority figures that are up for sale to the highest bidder. Tyranny of the minority is the part that people tend to forget about. When you create a situation where power is centralized, and it is not against the law to give huge contributions and other bribery to politicians to get what you want you will not only have tyranny of the minority, you will have tyranny to the highest bidder.

Even the Authoritarian roman empire had the good sense to execute people for bribing Senators.

planetaryjim:

"But they don't like the idea of a 'free market' of laws, where the 'market' determines what laws will stay and what will go based on the feelings of the 'consumers'."

Actually, many libertarians like this idea very much. But, you aren't offering anything of the sort. You are not offering a market for laws, where each individual consumer is free to take as many, or as few, choices as she prefers.

Instead, you are attempting to graft a mechanism that you think would be a step in that direction onto a system of authoritarian, hierarchical coercion. The majority who vote, or at least the majority of the votes that are counted, would then be used to establish some aspects of the order which would continue to be authoritarian, hierarchical, and coercive. But, of course, you don't mind if a few people get killed because they refuse to follow the dictates of your majority.

Your mechanism has no respect for the Bill of Rights. So, if a majority of the votes counted say that I have to give up my guns, you would demand that I give up my guns in obedience to your imaginary consensus. But, a majority is no consensus, it is just a majority, possibly miscounted, almost certainly fraudulent, and quite like misguided, or deliberately guided by malicious persons. A few exemplary school shootings and the herd goes over the cliff.

So, I have no respect for your mechanism. I don't respect a mechanism that attempts to tell me how my property may be used by majority consent. You don't get to vote on my property. You don't get to vote about my guns. If you do vote, in your amusing orthodoxy, and attempt to come collect my guns, I'll shoot you. All of you.

planetaryjim:

"As Senator Mike Gravel points out, the same is true of laws passed by referendum."

This is absurd.

First, Gravel is no authority. No one is any authority. I deride the entire notion of reasoning from authority as absurd and authoritarian. Gravel is just some guy.

Laws passed by referendum are not offered in the same way that the free market offers groceries. When I go into a store where things are offered for sale, I can take as many or as few things as I please. I can reject all the things that I regard as unpalatable. I can choose a subset of the things on offer. In a free market, I can haggle over the prices of the things I seek to buy, or find another seller in another store location.

Laws passed by referendum are nothing similar to a grocery store. Those with the power to make the laws enforce them, generally quite rudely. By force. By having men with guns come to my home and put me in a cage. Given your laws passed by referendum, important matters like my freedom to speak in my own defense, organise a defense, confront witnesses against me, have compulsory process to bring witnesses in my defense (matching the process which compels me to defend myself), and so forth, are all eliminated by the vicious, hateful, authoritarian thugs who either make up the majority of people, or make up those who count the votes.

There is a question now in front of the judiciary in California whether the people, in their arrogant majesty, have the power and authority to invalidate the marriage vows of same sex couples already joined together in sacred matrimony. It is a question of some pith and moment to many in the state of California, but it is, to me, simply a symptom of how utterly unworkable initiative and referendum actually is (and always has been).

You are attempting to fix a hierarchical, authoritarian, and coercive set of institutions by adding another "feature" which is itself hierarchical (those who count the votes matter most, those who cast votes matter more, and those who are prevented from voting are pariah), authoritarian (vox populi vox dei, which is an old Latin way of saying the people are revolting), and coercive (referendums passed become law and therefore must be obeyed).

Because you are a sycophant of Gravel and an enthusiast for national initiative, you won't tolerate any exceptional material. Everything must be sacrificed to the will of the people, or, anyway, the will of those who selectively count the votes. (How many of the write-in ballots cast in the recent election were counted?)

And I won't put up with that. You don't get to vote how I dispose of my property. In the event that you convince me that your recent vote to dispose of my property is going to have binding effect, I'll burn it all down and sow toxic waste into the soil before I let you have any of it. You don't get to vote on my freedom, which is inviolate.

The California courts, and possibly the USA Supreme courtliness are going to argue whether getting married is a freedom or a privilege, whether it is mutable by laws and referenda, or is inalienable and inherent. Just in case the point gets missed at the time, I don't give a flying flip what a bunch of clowns in black robes say about it.

planetaryjim:

"But people will eventually figure out that is not the way to go."

I have a different proposal. Set aside all things that the people have no business thinking about, nor acting upon. Leave me, my freedom, and my property alone.

Then nobody has to wait for you to educate the masses about what they should or should not do.

You make the simple minded assumption that all these people are willing to examine their lives, the world, and think philosophically. I think that's provably unlikely. Most people have very little time.

You might want to read Bryan Caplan's recent book about how voters actually go about voting. He writes about it here:
http://www.cato-unbound.org/2006/11/06/bryan-caplan/the-myth-of-the-rati...

His book length treatment of the topic would be a useful thing to examine.

I simply don't believe in your rational voters. In my experience, the overwhelming evidence is against this fantasy. Voters are not rational. If you were to wait for them to become rational, as you propose, I think you'd experience the early phases of the heat death of the universe before you encountered an election of entirely rational voters.

planetaryjim:

You are entirely mistaken about me. I am not an anarchist.

I believe in a form of government. It is called self-government.

My world already has voting, and its deficits are many, varied, and thoroughly documented.

There are a number of legal constructs, such as shareholder companies, where voting by shares (where an individual voter can buy as many votes as he wants) is used to determine, say, the members of a governing body such as a board of directors. Since these are voting mechanisms put in place by mutual consent, where all those with relevant property have at least some vote, and where an exceedingly large body of common law and precedent set forth inviolate rights of minority shareholders, it seems to me that in the future, were I able to disappear the state entirely, there would still be voting.

It would not, of course, be at all like the referendum voting that you adore.

planetaryjim:

"You are also not addressing that the minority would be protected by the Constitution."

Then let me review why I haven't bothered to do so. The minority are not currently protected by the constitution, against any of the tyranny under which we suffer.

I suggest you go to Waco, Texas. Make a pilgrimage to Mount Carmel. Stand before the cenotaphs of the seven dozen Texans massacred there by your government and ask what portion of the constitution protected them.

Go to Afghanistan or Iraq and see the mangled bodies of your countrymen, and the bodies of those who lived their entire lives, and died their entire deaths, in those countries, and ask what portion of the constitution protected them from a popular, but unconstitutional and undeclared war.

Go to the veterans hospitals, go to the homeless shelters, go to the soup kitchens, in the nearest large city to you, and ask what portion of the constitution protected any of those people.

What makes you think that I would believe, even for a moment, that you would set the constitutional limits on the powers of government ahead of the majesty of the voice of the people?

I realise that you could care less whether gay men in California are "allowed" by the state to marry. But, do you consider it a constitutional freedom for any two people to marry? If not, why not?

And if so, what portion of the constitution protected that freedom from Proposition 8?

planetaryjim:

"When you create a situation where power is centralized, and it is not against the law to give huge contributions and other bribery to politicians to get what you want you will not only have tyranny of the minority, you will have tyranny to the highest bidder."

Clearly, you have set forth this paragraph with the direct intention of insulting me in as nasty a way as possible. I resent and entirely abjure your comment.

I have not created a situation where power is centralised. Rather, I seek to decentralise power to the quantum unit of political activity, the individual. My entire political philosophy seeks to extol the variety, diversity, and possibility of individuals. My heraldic achievement at its most central is the naval flag for the letter I.

You shouldn't need me to point out that it is illegal to make huge contributions and other bribery to politicians. You might want to familiarise yourself with governor Blagojevich (sp?) in Illinois, or that guy with the freezer full of cash whose name cannot possibly matter to me.

You make the quaint assertion that under the Roman empire, those who bribed senators were executed. You cannot, however, show that all, or even most, of those who did so were in fact executed.

By the end of the Roman empire, senators were renowned for taking anything that they wanted. Few could stop them. A man's home, his vineyard, his estate, his wife, his children, any or all could be forfeit to the whim of a senator. The bureau-rats were taking thirty and forty and fifty percent of the wealth in many cities.

Very often, when barbarians came to sack a city, the garrison or legion, the senator, and the bureau-rats were determined to fight them off. But the barbarians came with an offer. Ten percent tribute would be exacted if the city surrendered. And the barbarians would sweeten the offer by executing the legion, the senator, and the bureau-rats. Many cities opened their gates quite eagerly.

I realise that many republicans and authoritarians think very highly of Rome for some reasons. A rather famous book about Rome, much of it propaganda, was written in 1776. But, Rome was a mess. Terms like "under the same auspices" referred not to some general concept of authority, but to the actual ripping open of the guts of birds to consult the omens therein - actual auspices. Bird augury.

Most people who extol the virtue of Rome, or even make reference to it, are dramatically ignorant of most of Roman history. Those who refer to the fall of the most brutal empire of the ancient world as the start of a dark age have no regard for the flowering of art, culture, and technology when Europeans were free to live their own lives. But authoritarians have always been poorly informed and impractical.