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Vote for At-Large Rep Vacancy (correct approval poll)

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Comments

shanklinmike:

Over the years I've fought hard for Liberty, some battles you win, sometimes you're just getting prepared to keep on fighting. I want to personally thank each person who supported me in this election and I hope we can all use this as a stepping stone in the future. I also want to congratulate Neil Kiernan on a fair, hard fought race as he takes the party forward. May we always stick to individual rights, reducing the size and scope of government, and a belief in personal choice and independence. To the battles we will fight amongst the statists in the future, to the current principles of the party, and to the self-ownership we each deserve!

To Peace & Freedom!

southernpatriot:

Doug Gaking 0 + 3 + 24 + 1 = 28
Neil Kiernan 29 + 3 + 1 + 1 = 34
Michael Shanklin 5 + 24 + 1 + 1 = 31

Neil wins the special election and takes the final seat on the National Committee

VTV:

Thank you.

shanklinmike:

I will strive to maximize individual rights while striving to minimize/abolish coercion and statism.

I will not bring you utopia, nor will I try to central plan your life.

I will fight to free everyone from compulsion and serfdom. This includes not taking away, through force, your right to medium of exchanges. Although I denounce fiat currency and central banking (I call for the abolishment of the Federal Reserve), I will not take away your right to voluntary exchange through barter nor through whatever medium of exchange you so choose. Currency is not an evil, it's just a translation of real wealth into some form of exchange that is more common. What is evil is the monopoly control of currency by central banks and inflationary and debt created contractions of the monetary supply. Only spontaneous order and anarcho-capitalism will protect personal freedom AND economic freedom. These two are really 1 item as explained by the unitary theory of freedom.

I will fight to free people from coercion which correlates with maximizing individual rights.

Peace & Freedom

VTV:

It's too bad we don't have the time, I would of loved to debate you on my radio show.

exposingneil:

Neil Kiernan Stephenson has not been employed for years. That is why he wants to use the BTP to push The Venus Project. So he never has to get a job! He wants everyone to be poor like he is!

VTV:

I stay home with my kids like many other parents. That's why I don't have a job. No more. No less. I could get a job and pay someone else to raise my kids. I prefer not to.

exposingneil:

You are a liar! I know all about your "parenting" what you really mean is ignore them while you post on forums all day!

So how do you pay for food?

Welfare queen!

You lie all the time Neil! Why don't you tell everyone how you stalked your wife to West Virginia because you can't pay your trailer home bills!

VTV:

Ignore my kids while I post on forums? Well obviously I don't do that. However I am wondering where you think you get this information from? Do you have video cameras in my house or something?

exposingneil:

Do you deny that you stalked your wife to West Virginia due to being unable to pay your bills thus resulting in a restraining order? Tell us about your trip to WV!

Who pays your bills? You have no source of income!

VTV:

http://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/173-restraining-orders-out-of...

In America today, restraining orders are not only overused, but abused in such a way as to threaten the concept of justice.

One day in December of 2005, Colleen Nestler came to Santa Fe County District Court in New Mexico with a bizarre seven-page typed statement and requested a domestic-abuse restraining order against late-night TV host David Letterman.

She stated, under oath, that Letterman seriously abused her by causing her bankruptcy, mental cruelty, and sleep deprivation since 1994. Nestler also alleged that he sent her secret signals “in code words” through his television program for many years and that he “responded to my thoughts of love” by expressing that he wanted to marry her.

Judge Daniel Sanchez issued a restraining order against Letterman based on those allegations. By doing so, it put Letterman on a national list of domestic abusers, gave him a criminal record, took away several of his constitutionally protected rights, and subjected him to criminal prosecution if he contacted Nestler directly or indirectly, or possessed a firearm.

Letterman had never met Colleen Nestler, and this all happened without his knowledge. Nonetheless, she requested that the order include an injunction requiring him not to “think of me, and release me from his mental harassment and hammering.” Asked to explain why he had issued a restraining order on the basis of such an unusual complaint, Judge Sanchez answered that Nestler had filled out the restraining-order request form correctly. After much national ridicule, the judge finally dismissed the order against Letterman. Those who don’t have a TV program and deep pockets are rarely so fortunate.

David Letterman

Is This American Justice?

Letterman’s experience is replicated in state courts around the country thousands of times daily. Consider what happened to Todd, whose estranged wife went to court secretly and obtained a

restraining order against him. She swore that three men dressed in purple Fathers for Justice camouflage uniforms broke into her apartment, pushed her violently onto her couch, choked her severely, and threatened her, telling her that she better not go back to court. She complained that these were agents of the husband, as he belonged to that group. She did not call the police, but decided to go to work. Later she collapsed near the entrance of a hospital emergency room in a dramatic flourish.

As Todd’s lawyer, I provided evidence that her story was as phony as the one about David Letterman. The wife lived in a large apartment building on a main road with a busy lobby and a nosy superintendent across the hall from her. However, no one saw or heard the three strangely dressed intruders enter or leave during rush hour. The hospital records showed no bruises or evidence of physical assault. The court vacated the order against Todd.

Courts are easily manipulated by those pretending to seek protection from abuse because the political climate reinforces that men are abusers, and there is no penalty for false claims. Thus, they embolden applicants to use them for ulterior motives, such as to gain an advantage in divorce, to get custody of children easily without a family court hearing, or as a quick eviction process. Sometimes the motive is revenge or worse. For example, an order was issued against Brendan, father of two daughters, because he brought flowers to his child’s home for her 10th birthday right after he sought enforcement of a custody order that the mother was routinely violating. Brendan was literally accused of “sneaking” into the yard to deliver flowers, nothing more, yet a restraining order was filed against him. This order was later vacated by a court.

An applicant can get a domestic-abuse restraining order for just about any reason. A report from an organization called Respecting Accuracy in Domestic Abuse Reporting (RADAR) suggests that it is as easy to obtain a restraining order as a hunting or fishing license. You fill out the forms and tell the judge you are afraid, and you get an order almost automatically. RADAR states: “The law defines almost any interpersonal maladjustment as ‘domestic violence,’ the courts then establish procedures to expedite the issuance of these orders.”

The restraining-order laws of the several states are remarkably similar in their wording, as though an invisible hand were guiding them. They allow a woman to come to court secretly and claim that she feels fearful of “abuse” from a family member or person she lives with. The accused person is not there, and there is no requirement to notify him. There are no traditional rules of evidence, no opportunity for cross examination, no burden of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, no jury, nor even a necessity to have a story that makes sense.

The definition of “abuse” set forth in these state laws is always subjective, rather than requiring an injury or genuine threat. They all include a clause that expands abuse to include “fear of harm,” often including even “emotional harm.” Courts routinely issue orders on sworn statements like, “I just don’t know what he may do,” or, “he has a long history of verbal and emotional abuse.”

A week after the initial secret hearing, a “return” hearing is held, where the defendant gets to tell his side of the story. He is usually allowed to present evidence and testimony, but it is often difficult to assemble needed documents and witnesses in that short period. Most of the temporary orders are extended for a year, regardless of the evidence, alibi, or witnesses offered.

To some judges, evidence is irrelevant; they just issue orders. Professor Stephen Baskerville, in his book Taken Into Custody, quotes Judge Richard Russell of Ocean City, New Jersey, at a restraining-order training seminar:

Throw him out on the street, give him the clothes on his back and tell him, “See ya around.”... The woman needs this protection because the statute granted her that protection.... They have declared domestic violence to be an evil in our society. So we don’t have to worry about the rights. Grant every order. That is the safest thing to do.

My client Mr. L’s experience is a perfect example of this. I filed a motion to vacate the restraining order his ex-wife had against him, and she filed one to extend it, so the judge held a hearing to consider both motions — sort of. Here is the pertinent part of the actual transcript of the hearing to vacate the order:

Mr. Hession: Can you please state your name and your address for the record? [The Court argues with counsel as to whether Mr. L can testify.]
The Court: I don’t believe I need to hear any evidence from your client. I’m going to deny your request to vacate the restraining order.

The hearing on whether to extend the order was no better:

The Court: Mrs. L_____, do you remain fearful of your husband?
Mrs. L_____: Yes. [Weeping]
The Court: Thank you.

The judge then extended the restraining order for a year, without Mr. L uttering his name on the witness stand, and with one generalized question to the wife about “fear.” Judges who conduct hearings like this violate their oath to apply the law impartially and encourage the filing a false complaints — which is an enormous problem.

According to professor of accountancy Benjamin P. Foster, Ph.D, CPA, CMA, of the 4,796 emergency protective-order petitions issued in West Virginia in 2006, an estimated 80.6 percent “are false or unnecessary.” Foster acknowledges the duplicitous nature of many of the complaints: “In divorce and child custody cases, a party generally obtains favorable treatment when the other party has engaged in domestic violence.” In West Virginia, one incident of domestic violence, “which includes ‘reasonable apprehension of physical harm’ and ‘creating fear of physical harm by harassment, psychological abuse,’... could impact the Parenting plan approved by the Family Court.” On the other hand, a “parent must have repeatedly made fraudulent reports of domestic violence or child abuse” to lose favor with a court. (Emphasis added.) Just the “identifiable costs” — the cost for the state, not the victims — for these false reports was in excess of $18,200,000 in 2006.

Drastic Punishment

Falsely issued restraining orders are of great concern because the punishment that is meted out to defendants is so drastic. After an initial secret restraining order is issued, the clerk faxes it to the local police, who then serve it on the defendant. Since most orders contain a “no contact” provision, the first thing the police do is remove the man from his home, with little more than the shirt on his back, just as Judge Richard Russell urged in his judicial training. Utterly taken by surprise, the man usually has no idea that the hearing took place, that the order was granted, or what he may have done to deserve it. The police are rarely sympathetic.

Most restraining orders require that the defendant may not contact the plaintiff directly or indirectly or get within some distance, usually 100 yards, of the alleged “victim.” Often, wives place the children as “co-victims” on these orders, so the defendant cannot contact his children either. “No contact” means no phone calls, cards, letters, or even incidentally running into the person.

No reconciliation is possible once an order is issued because any contact is a crime and subjects the violator to immediate arrest and jail. Even indirect contact is a crime, such as asking a relative to help work things out. Many men have sent flowers to a spouse or a birthday card to a child, only to end up in prison. Once an order is in place, the state becomes the father in the family, pushing out the real one.

Most district attorneys, prompted by feminist political pressure, have a “no-drop” policy on prosecuting all violations of restraining orders, no matter how minor. Joseph found that out the hard way. His wife obtained a restraining order after telling the judge he had kicked a plastic cooler and slammed the door while leaving his house. She omitted the part about telling him she had found another man.

No abuse or threat had occurred, but an order was issued against Joseph anyway. While it was in place, the wife made 14 false criminal complaints about violations of the order, which resulted in some arrests. I had to go to court with Joseph again and again, and we somehow managed to beat every case. Only a dysfunctional system allows a complainant to continue to make such false allegations without any accountability whatsoever.

Restraining orders also interfere with Second Amendment rights. Each state’s laws require that a defendant surrender all guns and ammunition, and violation of this provision is not only a state crime, but a federal one, under the Violence Against Women Act of 1994.

“Mike” was an Air Force officer in charge of a military police unit on base. When his ex-wife got a restraining order against him, he lost his right to carry a weapon and had to take a desk job. He had custody of their child, which the mother resented. She came to a child’s doctor appointment and attempted to create an incident, but was unsuccessful. However, the mother went to the local police to help her get an order. She told the police that there was no abuse and no history of abuse, so they wouldn’t get involved. She then went to the court in the adjoining state where she lived and claimed that there was abuse, and obtained a restraining order. Then, to cover her tracks, she went back to the police in the husband’s state and requested that they change her statement about no abuse. Eventually, he was able to remove the order, after hiring an expensive lawyer in the wife’s state.

Many police officers and military personnel who carry firearms are not so lucky, and have had careers permanently ruined by false allegations on restraining orders. In many places, once an order issues, even if it is eventually vacated, it is often impossible to get a gun license back.

Restraining orders especially impact the children. These orders are frequently used as a quick and dirty custody hearing, without the trouble of going to family court. In one minute, the father can lose the right to see his children for a year or longer. Children often get used as pawns in these situations, without any rebuke from a judge. While judges certainly know that falsely obtained orders are pervasive, they care little for the well-being of the children who are harmed by losing their father for long periods. The children often have no understanding of why they are being kept from their father because the father cannot even speak to them.

If dad works from home, as more people are now doing, additional problems arise. Under any order, he will be summarily evicted, and thus lose access to phones, business records, and equipment, without recourse. As a RADAR report puts it: “The man, now homeless and distraught, has only a few days to find a lawyer and prepare a defense.” When a home business is involved, he now cannot earn income, although he may be ordered to pay child support, needs alternate living quarters, and may have had his bank account emptied by his wife.

The case of Bob, who worked from home, shows the misuse of orders against self-employed persons. His wife got a restraining order against him, based on “a long history of verbal and emotional abuse,” which is not a legal basis for an order. After it was issued, Bob had to leave the home he owned prior to his marriage, in which he had his home-based business. Eventually, he was allowed to do business in one half of the home, while his wife and children lived in the other half. Despite her alleged “fear,” the wife came within a few feet of Bob on a regular basis. Meanwhile, the disruption of his business, the stress involved, and support payments destroyed him financially. He could not pay the huge child and spousal support assessments ordered by the court, which totaled triple his net income, and he was jailed twice. His business suffered, and he has still not recovered from the experience.

Skewed View of Abuse

The domestic-abuse industry has become a multi-billion dollar business during the last three decades, fueled by large influxes of government money and bolstered by media hysteria about abuse. Retired Massachusetts Judge Milton Raphaelson has stated, however, that there is not an epidemic of domestic violence, but rather an epidemic of hysteria about domestic violence.

State restraining-order laws suddenly sprang up in every state during the 1970s, at the insistence of radical feminist groups who had gained political ascendency. Family abuse was indeed a problem. However, the feminists identified the problem wrongly and proposed a solution that made it worse.

Building on the sensationalism of certain well-publicized cases, feminists built an “identity politics” view of abuse. It is true that some men still ascribed to the chauvinist notion that women were chattel and could be maltreated with impunity, but the feminists exploited that fact and got laws that harmed, not just men, but families. They declared that men were abusers and women were victims. Abused women were shown off at legislative hearings to manipulate the mostly male legislators into passing restraining-order laws.

For the first time, we now have laws that penalize people before they are proven to be criminals, for something they only might do. The laws are paradigms of pragmatism over principle, as they jettison centuries of highly developed legal theory and substitute a subjective and weak new legal framework which allows baseless allegations, while making it very difficult to defend against them. They allow a woman to claim “fear” of abuse, even if none has happened, leading to a classic “he said, she said,” where she holds all the cards.

While many persons involved in passing these laws may have been well-meaning, thinking they were going to help stop abuse, the unintended (or perhaps intended) consequences have been to change the very fabric of the legal system, and to decimate millions of families. In my experience, little abuse has been prevented by these laws. Stats back this up. For example, in West Virginia between 1981 and 1992, “domestic violence claims increased 466% from 1,065 to 6,029” and in Puerto Rico after a comprehensive domestic violence law was instituted in 1989, violence claims “did not decline or level off,” according to Professor Foster.

Answer to Domestic Violence?

Domestic-abuse restraining orders came about because a certain number of abusers really do assault and batter their partners. Scores of studies have attempted to understand the problem and find practical solutions, but domestic-abuse restraining orders are a flawed solution that has made the problem worse.

First, they have identified the wrong culprit. Women commit abuse more than men do. The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention reports, “In nonreciprocally violent relationships, women were the perpetrators in more than 70 percent of the cases. Reciprocity was associated with more frequent violence among women, but not men.” Psychologist John Archer reviewed hundreds of studies and concluded, “Women were slightly more likely than men to use one or more acts of physical aggression and to use such acts more frequently.” While men are more often the victims of abuse, women are injured more often and more severely than men. Moreover, about two-thirds of the reported cases are minor, such as throwing a pillow.

Has anyone vilified Hillary Clinton for throwing household objects at Bill, or singer Amy Winehouse for using her husband as a “punch bag”? We are desensitized to violence against men. In domestic arrest situations, it is almost always the man who is arrested, even if he is the only one injured. None of this is to justify abuse by anyone, only to show the fallacy of focusing solely on the abuse of women. Such unequal application of the law has likely led to more trauma and abuse than it purports to prevent, as well as destroyed respect for the system among fair-minded persons.

Whenever lawmakers respond to political pressure, a bad law is the usual result. Law has the properly limited purpose of insuring restitution to victims of those who intrude on the person or property of others. It has never been preventative, as domestic-abuse restraining-order laws seek to be, nor should it be. If true abuse does occur — a relative or non-relative threatens to batter or kill you or actually does physically attack — you are already able to make a criminal complaint for assault (which is defined as a threat to batter) and battery. And a criminal restraining order will likely be set in place. These new restraining-order laws seek to prevent crime by identifying persons who may commit one, and stop it before it happens. However, this is entirely speculative, and cannot identify perpetrators with any reliability.

In our imperfect world, we settle for an imperfect system that uses fear of punishment, rather than preemption, as its primary deterrent, but look at the alternative. With unjust restraining-order laws, we are creating a legal system that victimizes large groups of innocent people. We need to develop a better system, before we completely lose control of the present one. Thomas Reed, Speaker of the House of Representatives in the late 19th century, said, “One of the greatest delusions in the world is the hope that the evils in this world are to be cured by legislation.” Domestic-abuse restraining-order laws are a vain and delusional attempt to do so, and we need to eliminate them.

VTV:

No. I did not stalk her. I showed up to ask her to call the utility companies that SHE had not paid for about four months. They would not allow us to get the utilities in anyone else's name until they spoke to her.

I only went there once. Hardly stalking anyone. And would not of been needed if she had handled the finances. And as has been pointed out by both my political opponents and allies, restraining orders don't mean shit. You can get them easily and the burden of proof is tiny. In fact, in WV one law professor did a study and found that 80.6% of all restraining orders issued in that state were found to be frivolous.

When I went there to fight the restraining order the judge only let me talk for about thirty seconds, and did not let me call all my witnesses. Judges are told during the seminars about restraining orders to just give out the order, it's safer that way. You can get restraining orders on people you have never met. The concept was well intentioned, but they are abused constantly.

Also, how would you know anything about my income? Or it's sources?

VTV:

Oh, and another thing. Showing up at her home in WV would also not have been needed if she had left some form of contact information in the case of an emergency. Instead she abandoned her family, and left us in huge financial distress that very nearly caused the loss of our home, and children. If I had not found the address to where she was going because she was foolish enough to leave it somewhere she thought was hidden I would not of even been able to do that. When we did finally find her, she didn't care one bit about her kids, the home she had left, or anything but doing drugs and sleeping with her new boyfriend. Who ironically eventually beat her up and forced her to drink his urine.

I think it would be a good practice for you to simply shut up about my personal life as it's pretty clear you don't know what your talking about.

exposingneil:

No I don't think I will shut up! Because your dirty laundry shows exactly how responsible you are!

Not responsible at all! You have never taken responsibility for anything in your life! You look for things and others to blame! Constantly picking out their faults while putting yourself on a pedestal!

Screw you Neil Kiernan Stephenson! People will know what you are! A narcissist who wants to be in control!

VTV:

I guess you don't have to shut up. You can feel free to continue to spew lies and half truths. In case you haven't noticed, nobody really cares but you. Now that I have exposed you, please continue with your regularly scheduled programming of lies.

Synergy011235813:

Neil, don't feed the troll. He just wants attention. Let him continue to make an example of himself.

I'm sure just about everybody on here is fed up and disgusted with his antics by now, regardless of what they think about TVP.

exposingneil:

Ever notice how Neil always claims everyone else is lying?

I guess everyone else in the world has the lying problem! Neil is a saint! On welfare!

exposingneil:

In typical Neilspin everything is blamed on someone else! I guess its someone else's fault you didn't pay your bills for four months! She didn't live there for four months and yet you expect her to pay the bills?? What is wrong with you!?

Hah! Welfare queen loser! Spin spin spin spin spin!

How do I know? Because you've burned so many bridges over the years your dirty laundry is available for anyone who knows who to ask!

The fact that your wife left you for four months yet you still expected her to pay the bills shows how much you take responsibility! You don't! You just shift blame and make excuses!

VTV:

No moron. She had not paid the bills for three of those months WHILE SHE WAS LIVING HERE and was responsible for handling the finances. We still have no idea how she blew the money that myself and the roommates had put together.

The reason I am asking you how you "know" any of this is because virtually everything you have said is simply outright wrong. And I am pointing out that you are making things up.

exposingneil:

Its only wrong because it doesn't agree with your crazy Neilspin!

How many communities have you burned bridges to Neil? How long before you burn this one too??

Tanoro:

You are being asked nicely to cease your juvenile attacks on Neil.

I have had the pleasure of trading correspondance with Neil several times and while he does appear to have a direct and confrontational nature about him which likely stems from a bit too much emotional passion behind his cause, he is not what I perceive as a deceptive or questional individual.

You, sir, are trying to dig up the every possible character flaw you can find, villainizing him for having done nothing wrong, and calling him a liar like a schoolyard sissy. I do not wish to appear indelicate, but please be aware that you only make yourself look questionable with such behavior.

exposingneil:

Free speech! I'll use it as much as I want to and there is nothing you Marxist cult freaks can do about it!

I don't care what you ask for! I am here to defend liberty! Judging by the votes no one else cares what you want either except for your fellow cultists!

Tanoro:

You don't appear to be paying attention. Oh well, suit yourself.

exposingneil:

Take your Venus Project and move to Korea!

TVMH:

Invective does not help...better to stick with facts, imo.

exposingneil:

It certainly is a fact that he has been unemployed for years. Ask him!

How do welfare queens fit into the BTP?

Synergy011235813:

I have been attempting to edit my monstrous post (06/30/2010 - 04:25) to cut it down to size into two manageable chunks since it is directed as a response to two questions. Unfortunately, my attempt to simply cut my original post in half in edit mode somehow triggers the spam filter, so I guess I'm going to have to leave it be.

Sorry for the length guys.

brighton4343:

I do not Feel Neil Keirnan (VTV) is a good match for the nat-at-large-com seat.

My Co-host TVMH interviewed him for several hours (Archive available at boldvoices.tv)regarding the "Venus" project ....I do not feel he is a good representative for BTP.

Kimberly Johnson

TVMH:

...some of his behavior I could do without, but I'm sure that applies to everyone (myself included).

I don't see a major problem here; the bylaws appear to address the issue of an individual holding a policy position that is repugnant to the platform (Article 4(c)).

Personally, I'd still like for someone to tell me how a Resource Based Economy works WITHOUT more government.

I understand that "technology" is supposed to run everything, but who watches the computer programmers? Who regulates the computer manufacturers? Who regulates the regulators?

Sounds like an implicit endorsement of government to me.

inDglass:

I am also waiting for someone to tell me how an economy functions without money!

Synergy011235813:

inDglass,

TVP intends to embrace the natural trends of technological progression in terms of automation to eliminate monotonous labor.

Here's a recent New Scientist article on commercial pilot automation looming on the horizon: http://tiny.cc/uwmyh

Marshall Brain actually anticipated transportation to be one of the first to go in his tri-series of articles on technological unemployment: http://marshallbrain.com/robotic-nation.htm

Within the context of a monetary-based economy, this spells trouble. As this trend will inevitably continue, more and more jobs will be eliminated with virtually nowhere left to go. How might we adapt to this trend? Mass welfare? That won't work.

I'll simplify it as best I can. We have the technology, and will continue to refine said technology extremely rapidly in the near future (ever heard of Moore's Law?), to automate almost all jobs in manufacturing, agriculture, transportation (as the example above demonstrates) etc. to produce and distribute an abundance of products based on demand.

Even extraction (which is largely wasteful in our current society with irresponsible methods of over consumption of unnecessary materials and a lack of sufficient recycling practices due to profit) is largely being taken over by automation, as this Wall Street Journal Business article from two years ago details: http://tiny.cc/nqc13

Consider Toyota's recent commitment to utilize robotic nurses in the near future: http://tiny.cc/cl2k1 and the recent news that Robots are now being used at a Scotland hospital: http://tiny.cc/ihcym And this is just the beginning stages of what is to come -- in just the next few years.

Here's a terrific 4 minute video summary of the concept of technological unemployment based largely on direct quotations from the ZM Orientation Guide entitled "There is No Irreplaceable Job": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7maayW9ycCw

When we have the means in place to produce an abundance without manual labor, money becomes meaningless as a method of exchange. (I would like to add that "consumerism" is largely an advertising invention related to status symbolism. It is not in our "nature" to always want more than what we have, and historical, cultural anthropology research supports this.)

Consider this recent wired video relating the concept of "Why $0.00 is the Future of Business": http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZkeCIW75CU

TVMH,

So all that aside, "who makes the decisions?" (I take this as the basis of your government question?). Nobody. Decisions are arrived at, not decided upon, by the application of the scientific method. Today we have elected officials who have backgrounds in law, business, economics etc. that make policy decisions largely on topics concerning engineering (infrastructure), medical practice and psychology/sociology (crime and other social factors). They're entirely unqualified. (Obviously, in a global, Resource-Based Economy, all business, and monetary economic policy will cease to exist. Decision making will be far more simplified.) Most of our problems today are technical, not political.

The ZM Orientation presentation describes the technical process of resource allocation and decision making etc. in a decent, summarized manner toward the end. It is available in both written (TZM homepage) and video form (google video).

Here's a clip from a lecture where Peter Joseph covered this issue briefly:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7V7MAVR7O7o

He has also answered this question multiple times on his radio address, clips of which are all over youtube. Just search "Peter Joseph who makes decisions".

Jacque Fresco often discusses how even decision making can largely be automated. I think Jacque described the concept pretty well in the following 4 minute video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yc-GTVwKXD4 (if you don't want to watch the full video just skip to "2:15")

The electronic environmental "nervous system" of sorts Jacque described, and has described for years(of having sensors in all relevant areas from energy, agriculture, nature, etc.), is now being developed by MIT: http://tiny.cc/yso9b

I would also like to stress that there is no individual "in charge." In other words, ideas can be submitted by anyone. Those with the most merit and _consensus_ would be implemented.

I hope that helps to answer your question.

inDglass:

Technology does not replace laborers. It actually results in more production and more employment. New technology changes labor, but it does not eliminate it. It may eliminate positions, resulting in the lay-off of workers. However, the end result is actually more employment opportunities, just different ones. The union mentality has made workers feel safe in a job for far too long, and not prepared to handle change. People think their same job in the factory is going to be maintained for 30 years, as if no progress will be made in the industry over that time that may eliminate the requirement for their particular job and replace it with a different need. It is a socialist myth that technology reduces the labor force. I suggest reading Henry Hazlitt's Economics in One Lesson, which clears up ridiculous myths such as this.

VTV:

I destroyed "Economics in one lesson" on my radio show sometime ago. Technology used to create more job oppurtunities. It doesn't any longer. And has not for a while. The goal of design right now is to eliminate jobs, not create them.

Synergy011235813:

inDglass,

With all due respect, that book was written in 1988. A lot has changed since then. I have read several articles even as recent as the late 1990's denouncing technological unemployment, but as the years go by the holes in their logic have become increasingly apparent. The idea that new technology will always create just as many jobs as they displace just hasn't born itself out.

Criticism's of technological unemployment have been around since the late 1800's. The reasoning was observation of new sector development every time jobs were displaced. That trend can't continue on forever.

The agriculture industry was the first to be largely displaced. Jobs were absorbed by manufacturing and service sectors. In recent decades, manufacturing has largely been displaced with the majority of jobs being absorbed by the service sector. Even there now jobs are quickly being swallowed up. We will continue running out of options.

Take a look at this 2009 employment chart: http://www.bls.gov/oes/highlight_2009_chart_1_small.png

Retail: More than 4 millions jobs
Cashiers: Nearly 3.5 million jobs
Food Preparation & Service: About 2.6 million jobs
Waiter/Waitress: 2.2 million jobs
Freight, Stock, Material Movers: 2.1 million jobs
Janitors & Cleaners: 2.1 million jobs
Truck Drivers: 1.5 million jobs

Etc.

These are just a few of the top jobs that can easily be automated with existing technology. That's 18 million jobs right there. What new sector is going to absorb that jobloss?

So what happens in the very near future when all repair, all construction, all manufacturing, all cultivation, all extraction, all transportation, all service, and all disease diagnosis and treatment becomes increasingly automated? This isn't some science fiction proposal, we are seeing it happen right now and it's not just going to stop or slow down. Based on Moore's Law, we could have human level A.I. by 2040 (well within my lifetime). Possibly even sooner, as Moore's Law has actually accelerated, to the surprise of many, in recent years. Imagine those implications.

Currently, technological advancement is following an exponential growth curve. Try having a stable economy with sectors where employment is fluctuating wildly more and more as technology continues to advance.

Thomas L. Knapp:

I have some experience from the worker/floor point of view with respect to automation in manufacturing. That experience is this:

More automation = more jobs

When I worked at a factory that made boat trailers, there were six welders who put together the frames.

The factory introduced robotic welders. Within six months, the number of human welders grew to ten -- because the robotic welders turned out 3-4 times as many frames, but human welders were needed to inspect and spot-weld those frames.

Later, I worked at a factory which produced bottled condiments -- mustard, hot sauce, barbecue sauce, etc.

One one line, the line that produced the small bottles of hot sauce, there were two workers who did nothing but "dump glass" -- take cases of empty bottles and put the bottles on the line to be filled.

Those two workers (I was one of them) were replaced by a machine that could uncase and place a pallet layer (8 cases) of bottles in the time that it took the two workers to do a case each.

Result: The human staffing of the rest of the line went from 4 to 6 -- in other words, the two "eliminated jobs" were replaced -- with the addition of an extra quality control inspector and an assistant line tender to keep up with the much higher volume of production. More labor hours were also added in the warehouse and shipping departments to keep up with that increased volume, probably amounting to the better part of a third additional job.

In both cases -- boat trailers and hot sauce -- the production cost went down, meaning that the product could be sold more cheaply while still returning a profit, meaning that people who couldn't buy it, or couldn't buy as much of it, before could now buy it or buy more of it.

Synergy011235813:

Well, I can't speak for your personal experiences, but I have one of my own as well, and a few statistics I am familiar with.

My main priority right now is my education (college), but I have had several part-time jobs over the past few years. One of them was at a Movie Theater.

Most theaters still use the old reel projectors. With 3-D movies becoming the new big thing, even the older theaters have had to upgrade to digital projectors. They're far easier to deal with. Literally, you press buttons on a touchscreen. At the theater I am at (which is a very, very old facility), we have two digital projectors. So, the technology is there, and we expect more to be arriving soon until the old projectors are all replaced.

So what? Well, it just so happens that you can control all of the digital projectors through a remote computer. In other words, once the upgrade is complete, there will be no more projectionist. The managers have full access to all of the settings and can start, stop etc. from the office. Taken a step further, they could be set for automatic start times. In this situation, jobs are lost -- permanently.

Automated Box Office machines also exist. If/when fully implemented, they could replace the box office cashier. Similar situations face cashiers across the country and world.

For much of this machinery, maintenance crews are already on the payroll, thus new jobs would not be filled in response to the automation. The net return is a loss of total jobs.

Some historical facts and figures:

In 1949, machines did 6% of the cotton picking in the South. By 1972, 100% of the cotton picking was done by machines. (Peterson, Willis, The Cotton Harvester in Retrospect: Labor Displacement or Replacement? St Paul, 1991, pp 1-2)

When automation hit the US Manufacturing Sector in the 1950s, 1.6 million blue-collar jobs were lost in 9 years. (Kahn, Tom, Problems of the Negro Movement , Dissent, 1964, p 115)

In 1860, 60% of America worked in Agriculture, while today it is less than 3% (increasing demand is off-set by increasing productive capacity despite decreasing employment). ("Why job growth is Stalled", Fortune, 3/8/93 p.52)

In 1950, 33% of US workers worked in Manufacturing, while by 2002 there was only 10%. (USA Today, December 12th 2002: http://bit.ly/cdmjbe)

The US steel industry, from 1982 to 2002 increased production from 75m tons to 120m tons, while steel workers went from 289,000 to 74,000. (Schwartz, Nelson D. Will 'Made in the USA' fade away? Fortune Nov 24th 2003, p. 102)

In 2003, Alliance Capital did a study of the world’s largest 20 economies at that time, ranging from the period of 1995 to 2002, finding that 31 million manufacturing jobs were lost, while production rose by 30%. (US Weekly Economic Update: Manufacturing Payrolls Declining Globally: The Untold Story , Alliance Bernstein Oct 2003)

1983-1993, banks cut 37% of their human tellers, and by the year 2000, 90% of all bank customers used teller machines (ATMs). (Retooling Lives , Vision 2000 p. 43)

Many fast food restaurants have been talking about full automation of its restaurants for many years now, introducing Kiosks to replace the front of house staff, while using automated cooking tools, such as burger flippers, for the back house staff. (http://bit.ly/bJIMRT)

The idea that technological unemployment is a myth, and that technology will always create just as many, if not more jobs than they displace, is largely founded on the assumptions that machines will never achieve self-awareness, come close to human dexterity, be able to diagnose/repair/build other machines by themselves unsupervised by human beings, etc. Needless to say, I disagree.

Thomas L. Knapp:

"In this situation, jobs are lost -- permanently."

No, in this situation particular jobs (projectionist positions) are lost -- permanently.

It does not follow from that that the overall number of jobs, either in general or even in the theater that just cut projectionist jobs, goes down.

You show a lot of statistics claiming that the percentage of people employed in industry A, B, C has gone down.

What you don't show are the statistics claiming that overall unemployment over the same period has moved steadily down toward 5% -- which is effectively the statistical noise created by people moving between jobs -- and stayed there until a background burden of government debt and government economic distortions tore through the economy like a rabid weasel through a herd of swine.

Apparently you think it's a bad thing that fewer people are picking cotton and more people are writing Java apps, that fewer people are flipping burgers and more people are operating MRI machines, etc.

I don't.

Synergy011235813:

Projectionist jobs will be eliminated permanently. That wasn't a misstatement. That's a loss of jobs resulting in frictional unemployment. Your opinion is the that loss of projectionist occupations (as just one example) will eventually be offset by new occupations in different sector, right? We're going to have to agree to disagree here. Only time will tell.

My position is that we are on the brink of a technical revolution. Every physical task required for the majority of world occupations robots are, or soon will be, able to perform as well. We never had that capability decades ago.

That leaves the thinking to humans, at least for a couple decades. Occupations will exist in this sense. Occupations that are undermined by both competitive and incentive systems, according to experimental results.

"Apparently you think it's a bad thing that fewer people are picking cotton and more people are writing Java apps, that fewer people are flipping burgers and more people are operating MRI machines, etc."

As I mentioned earlier in response to a similar accusation, we need to find a way to embrace the increased productivity without destroying the purchasing power of the nation and world through mass unemployment.

Technology displaces labor, but increases productivity and thus lowers costs. Lowered costs with increasing output lowers prices. Lower prices mean nothing, however, if the populous has no purchasing power. We're running out of sectors to absorb the increasing job displacement. We were never presented with this problem throughout history. We always had other sectors to absorb the displacement, and the technology was never so flexible in task capabilities. In this sense, technological unemployment presents a major problem -- within a monetary system.

inDglass:

There are people who call themselves economists, who collect statistics and use them to support their beliefs. Those people aren't really economists though, maybe politicians. Then there are actual economists, who understand how humans act and interact and how they produce and exchange goods. They grasp how labor works, and understand basic concepts, like the fact that increased production in one part of production benefits all parties involved. You really do need to read some Rothbard or Hazlitt and learn some basics of economics if you want to make any progress toward your economic goals.

TVMH:

sounds like a good book title... "Boat Trailers and Hot Sauce: The Economics of Automation"

:-D

Thomas L. Knapp:

TVMH,

A little too anecdotal for a book, I think ... but the point is well documented.

Textile workers in France rioted when the Jacquard Loom was introduced, convinced it would cost them all their jobs. Within a decade, employment in that industry had increased by a full order of magnitude because the loom brought production costs down dramatically enough to make the product affordable to millions of people who'd never have been able to purchase hand-woven textiles.

inDglass:

But, Tom, at some point between 1988 and today, all that changed. There has been a radical transformation of society and technology, so that all fundamental economic truths from before 1988 are no longer true, and what were once economic myths are now the economic facts.

inDglass:

I just realized, the Venus Project people are right. This will work! They even made a movie about it. They replaced all work with automated labor and had a utopian society. The movie was called Wall-E. LMAO!

Tanoro:

The movie Wall-E, while very amusing, made a few interesting points and left out a few points.

Observation #1: The people in that movie lived and functioned based on hypnotic corporate propaganda literally placed in their faces at all times.

Observation #2: Everything was provided for and machines did the labor, which is consistant with our purposal to a great extent, however...

Omission #1: The people on that ship had a firm and highly unusual disregard for art, creativity, human interaction, emotional connections, expression, culture, individuality, and general curiosity for their surroundings (hence the reason they remained docile, cooperative, and generally ignorant of the pleasures available to them on the ship in which they were "imprisoned").

Omission #2: There was no interest among the people (with the exception of the Captain who miraculously awoke and began to question things during the movie) to satisfy the need to learn and expand one's knowledge, to explore one's roots, and to see things new and different. While human life cycles into each new generation, the curiosity never goes away because each new generation breeds a whole new cycle of curiosity. People naturally become bored over time and want things to change, preferrably for the better.

inDglass:

If the automation of labor is allegedly such a problem, why does TVP advocate it?

Synergy011235813:

Automation is a big problem -- within a Monetary-Based Economy. TVP recognizes this problem, but also recognizes the fact that production has risen as a result. Automation is both good and bad, in this respect. So how do you solve the unemployment issue? By transitioning out of a Monetary-Based Economy into a Resource-Based Economy, unless you prefer massive welfare programs, and the whole host of other problems directly correlated to the pursuit of money, that is.

TVMH:

Synergy:

What happens if I decide that I don't trust the people writing the automation software?

And you wrote:
"Most of our problems today are technical, not political."

I believe the opposite is true, and I suspect you do, as well, otherwise, why would you be interested in joining a political party?

The Drug War is not a "technical" problem. Police brutality is not a technical problem. Excessive taxation is not a "technical problem". Pre-emptive war is not a "technical problem".

Then you write:
"I would also like to stress that there is no individual "in charge." In other words, ideas can be submitted by anyone. Those with the most merit and _consensus_ would be implemented."

Is "merit" a function of whatever serves the best interests of the group? That, sir, is COLLECTIVISM.

And what do you mean by "consensus"? I thought no one made decisions in an RBE. If no one makes any decisions, there can be no consensus.

Synergy011235813:

"What happens if I decide that I don't trust the people writing the automation software?"

If you are suspicious of the motives of an individual writing specific software or involved in the implementation of automation systems you have the ability to involve yourself in the process. You would need to identify the aspects you take issue with and present alternatives.

"The Drug War is not a "technical" problem. Police brutality is not a technical problem. Excessive taxation is not a "technical problem". Pre-emptive war is not a "technical problem"."

The drug war is largely a sociological issue, as is police brutality. Drug addicts are not influenced by genetics, but environmental influences. A recent study on monkeys, when taught to use cocain, found that their use was strongly correlated to their position in an established social hierarchy. Those lower in the order used more than those higher up. The wealth gap is correlated in this sense in human beings.

The Merva-Fowles study, along with finding a strong correlation to almost all crime following even subtle changes in the unemployment rate, found that a rise in unemployment (resulting in monetary deprivation and scarcity) also led to unhealthier diets and increased drug and alcohol use along with a myriad of additional health problems.

Further, there is money to be made in a monetary-based economy in the sale of drugs. Thus, there is a motivation to pressure people to try certain drugs. Once they are hooked they become faithful, frequent customers. That motive evaporates in a RBE.

Excessive taxation is a philosophical problem that isn't relevant in a RBE. It's a monetary issue.

These are scientific issues that should be addressed as such. They should not be political issues because philosophy is not sufficient to solve problems due to variations in individual preference.

"Is "merit" a function of whatever serves the best interests of the group? That, sir, is COLLECTIVISM.

And what do you mean by "consensus"? I thought no one made decisions in an RBE. If no one makes any decisions, there can be no consensus."

Every technical proposal has some level of merit. The merit is determined through experimentation. Proposals that are more successful than others have more merit. In other words, nobody arbitrarily "decides" which proposal has more merit. It is merely an observation of experimental results.

Tanoro:

Hiya. I'm new to the BTP and I'm also a supporter of the Venus Project.

The information you seek is thoroughly discussed in the Zeitgeist Movement's orientation guide and video. Citations are provided therein.

The facts, as far as I can assert, are that money is only necessary where society demands a medium of exchange for resources that are scarce. We don't pay for air because it's abundant and easily accessible. The Venus Project's idea is to use technology and automation to make everything abundant and accessible, thus eliminating the need to buy anything.

Theoretically, money is given in exchange for contributing to society (working) and also exchanged for access to resources (consuming).

This sets two simple concepts:
1. Work must be done by people to create products for society.
2. Society must work to gain access to those products via purchasing power.

This system is theoretically sustainable until you factor in technology and automation. Firstly, technology can produce more of any given product than we can ever readily consume. Secondly, machines outsource labor and thus reduce the purchasing power of the consumers. These two factors undermine the tenets of a monetary system, which we in TZM suspect is the reason everything is going to hell. In addition, as technology outsources the labor in agriculture and manufacturing, it is becoming increasingly more critical to work jobs that do not contribute to society (advertising, banking, service jobs, etc.).

The solution, as we see it, is that we must make the resources all as abundant as the air and easy for anyone to access. If this is done, money will become irrelevant.

Pir-EdJesus:

"The Venus Project's idea is to use technology and automation to make everything abundant and accessible, thus eliminating the need to buy anything."

I guess that's the issue.

Nobody here believes that you can do that. And we probably would have to, as nobody in your Venus Project has published any business plans, cost estimates or anything that would provide evidence for the claim that "everything" can be abundant.