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For the sake of comparison
Number of voters participating in the Boston Tea Party's 2008 presidential nomination poll: 37
Number of voters who have so far participated in the poll to fill the party's open at-large national committee seat: 50
Maybe a little controversy isn't so bad for the party after all. It seems to encourage active participation in the party's affairs at any rate.
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inDglass:
Look at the nature of most of the arguments taking place between Neil, Todd, and whoever is carrying the username "exposingneil." This sort of nonsense is not good for the party.
Voting in one poll also does not qualify as "active participation" in the party, in my opinion. Anyone can login and vote for their buddy. Where were these people when we needed members for the Bylaws and Program Committees? How many of these people hold a position on a state affiliate's committee? How many of these people live in states that don't even have affiliates and aren't doing anything about it?
Thomas L. Knapp:
Doug,
I agree that Neil and Todd tend to indulge in drama for the sake of drama, especially versus each other, and that it's annoying.
As far as "exposingneil" is concerned, I'm starting to think he/she is just an installation of ELIZA with words like "Marxist" and "!!!!!" seeded in its database. If so, someone has apparently linked it to a Turing machine that can defeat CAPTCHA, which seems kind of like hitching a Derby-worth racehorse to my kid's little toy wagon, but whatever.
Voting in one poll may or may not constitute "active participation," but it seems like a starting point at any rate. The special election seems to be generating more interest than the convention did, anyway.
I don't have an iron in the fire when it comes to the anarcho-capitalist [sic] caucus versus the RBE caucus. I'd like to see them both involved in the party's future. Who knows -- they might have some things to teach each other.
VTV:
You know Tom, your right. I will clean up my act in regard to "drama" with Todd and just stick to my principles. It's an old argument that should just go away.
I am fairly confident that Todd will continue regardless, but that is on him.
This does not mean that I will not reply, but I will keep my points direct and to the point.
I also thank you for realizing that there are things the RBE people can learn from the Capitalists and vice versa. That is more what I am suggesting.
As for free advertising, I was explaining the value of third party politics. They are all free advertising of ideas. This is not just about the Zeitgeist Movement or the Venus Project. All third parties tend to accomplish little more then advertising of ideas in their efforts. Even when I was a mainstream Libertarian running for congress I understood that my candidacy was more for advertising Libertarian concepts then it ever was to win.
I do care about the future of the party, which is why I didn't want to run a full slate of candidates. I feel that the right wing libertarians deserve to have their voice in this party. They founded it. And I would not stand by and allow anyone else to pull any of the crap that has been pulled against my caucus on them either.
It is also important to note that my caucus actually has a lot more in common when it comes to how it's membership would vote with mainstream libertarians then you probably would think.
We oppose war. Especially fundraiser wars like Iraq and Afghanistan.
We oppose anything that limits personal freedom.
We oppose coercion or force.
We oppose the federal reserve.
We want to point out political corruption wherever it is.
We oppose religion having any place in government.
There are dozens of other things, I just don't have the time to point it out right now. The funny thing is, it was a Right-wing Libertarian who took the time to point out to me that there really is no reason that we should oppose each other. At the end of the day if I have to choose between a Neo-Con who wants to force his corporation into power, or a Free Market Libertarian who wants to give power back to the little guy in the market I pick the Libertarian every time.
Now if you have the choice of a neighbor who:
1. Is producing all of his own stuff as much as possible, and eliminating any need for him to use money.
2. Is not interested in taking anything from you, nor would he stand by and allow anyone else to do so.
3. Does not advocate force or coercion.
Or a neighbor who thinks it is just fine to vote to raise YOUR taxes so he can take from you. Which one would you prefer?
This is about getting out of the system. This is about rising above it. Not about forcing you to give us anything. And if we voluntarily choose to work together toward that goal why are you so afraid of us? Even if our community eventually took up most of the planet, we would NEVER advocate anyone forcing you to participate in what we are doing. EVER.
You have bigger fish to fry. Actually WE have bigger fish to fry.
The plutocrats. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plutocracy
They like things the way they are now. They like holding back technology that can free mankind, and they like regulations that keep Mom and Pop businesses from ever threatening them. They like destroying economies and forcing people to work for them.
I imagine it suits them just fine to see us arguing about this and not about how to defeat them.
inDglass:
"You know Tom, your right. I will clean up my act in regard to 'drama' with Todd and just stick to my principles. It's an old argument that should just go away."
I am going to hold you to that!
Seriously, several of us have been saying these past couple days that there is room for the RBEC in the party, and that is something that could potentially benefit us all. I hope that we can ignore obnoxious, negative characters like "exposingneil" and simply get down to business. I also hope the the RBEC members will play a role beyond voting in these petty elections. For this party to be remotely competitive in elections and have a voice in the national political forum, we need strong state and county affiliates, ballot access, and a more active national party. We are seeing a swell in membership thanks to the new RBEC members and to members joining to promote other views. If these people do nothing more than vote to advance their candidates, they will accomplish nothing toward their political objectives. If they take an active role in developing the party, they will accomplish something great for the entire libertarian movement.
exposingneil:
Many of those voting for Neil do not even live in the United States!
He is trying to use BTP as a platform for pushing The Venus Project he does not care about it any more than that.
inDglass:
Indeed, Neil has referred to the BTP as "free advertising" for TVP.
exposingneil:
This is an attempted hostile takeover of a liberty minded organization to push a technofascist utopian agenda because Neil is setting himself up as the leader of TVP after Jacque Fresco dies.
This is an organized infiltration!
Synergy011235813:
Neil would not be the leader, and Jacque isn't the leader right now. That is counter to what TZM and TVP stand for. Technically sound proposal's are what matter, not leaders. We oppose the very concept of "leadership" in the sense of a ruling authority. Jacque has stated on multiple occasions that he does not want followers (see his interview "On The Edge" on youtube), and Peter Joseph has explicitly stated on multiple occasions on the radio address and in his lectures that he is not a leader, he's just an outspoken activist trying to get an idea across. Jacque is simply the originator of the concept, an authority only in the tenets, not an authority in their execution.
exposingneil:
Go lie to another LARP community you unemployed loser!
exposingneil:
Yes that happens when people tell their commie minions to join the BTP and pump up votes!
VTV:
Commie? Are you serious? Now you sound like some idiot from J. Edgar Hoover's fascist era.
exposingneil:
Go lie to another LARP community you unemployed loser!
jmewstn:
I am Jamey in WA state. I joined the party because of the ideals we all share. Likewise, I joined the venus project for the same. I joined btp before I knew niel was running for a position. I voted for him because I know we share the same understandings. I think he is a passionate and honest individual, truely intent on bringing improvement to all life on Earth. I understand your fears and judgements on the cause we advocate, they come naturally when you are raised in such a society. Please I beg to make an attempt to ellaborate your concerns and feelings instead of such an aggressive approach; it hinders my ability to understand your reasoning and intent. I wish for an attempt to bring an intellectual point into play, and little less negativity.
inDglass:
I was going to reply that you can't reason with the unreasonable, but "exposingneil" proved me right before I said it.
exposingneil:
I don't want your points! I want you to take your socialist crap and go to North Korea with it!
VTV:
@exposingneil
Dude, you realize that both the Capitalists and the non-Capitalists in this debate both think your an idiot right?
exposingneil:
This identity means nothing and as long as yours goes through the mud with mine that's just fine!
That's what happens when you've burned as many bridges as you have Neil! Enemies everywhere!